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Subject: Re: [OMPI devel] [RFC] Non-blocking collectives (LibNBC) merge to trunk
From: Jeff Squyres (jsquyres_at_[hidden])
Date: 2008-02-14 13:15:37


So I don't think that we ever concluded this discussion/RFC.

I am in favor of bringing in libnbc, given the qualifications below.

Others?

On Feb 8, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Jeff Squyres wrote:

> Terry -- I reluctantly agree. :-) What I envision is not difficult
> (a first cut/feature-lean version is probably only several hundred
> lines of perl?), but I don't have the cycles (at present) to implement
> it -- my priorities are elsewhere at the moment.
>
> If anyone is interested in this, I would gladly talk them through what
> [I think] needs to be done.
>
> That being said, for NBC, per Terry's points:
>
> - if it's not compiled/installed by default
> - if we can make a big enough red flag for users that it's an R&D
> effort that is subject to change (perhaps 3'x5'?)
>
> Then I think it would not be a bad thing to include NBC. But then I
> think we need to disallow any other contrib/ projects until someone
> can find the cycles to implement a better solution (such as an
> ompi_contrib executable/system).
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2008, at 1:18 PM, Terry Dontje wrote:
>
>> Jeff, the below sounds good if we really believe there is going to
>> be a
>> whole bunch of addons. I am not sure NBC really constitute as an
>> addon
>> than more some research work that might become an official API. So I
>> look at the NBC stuff more like a BTL or PM that is in progress of
>> being
>> developed/refined for prime time. So would a new PM or BTL be added
>> via
>> ompi_contrib? I wouldn't think they would.
>>
>> The ompi_contrib sounds like a nice utility but I have feeling there
>> are
>> bigger fish to fry unless we really believe there will be a lot of
>> addons that we will need to support.
>>
>> --td
>>
>> Jeff Squyres wrote:
>>> All these comments are good. I confess that although I should
>>> have, I
>>> really did not previously consider the complexity of adding in N
>>> contrib packages to OMPI.
>>>
>>> The goal of the contrib packages is to easily allow additional
>>> functionality that is nicely integrated with Open MPI. An obvious
>>> way
>>> to do this is to include the code in the Open MPI tarball, but that
>>> leads to the logistics and other issues that have been identified.
>>>
>>> Ralph proposes a good way around this. But what about going farther
>>> than that: what we if we offer a standardized set of hooks for
>>> including contrib functionality *after* core OMPI has been
>>> installed?
>>> Yes, it's one more step after OMPI has been installed -- but if we
>>> can
>>> keep it as *one* step, perhaps the user onus is not that bad. Let
>>> me
>>> explain.
>>>
>>> Consider a new standalone executable: ompi_contrib. You would run
>>> ompi_contrib to install and uninstall contrib functionality into
>>> your
>>> existing OMPI:
>>>
>>> ompi_contrib --install http://www.example.com/nbc/nbc-ompi-contrib.tar.gz
>>> or ompi_contrib --install file:///home/htor/nbc-ompi-contrib.tar.gz
>>>
>>> This will download NBC (if http), build it, and install it into the
>>> current OMPI. It is likely that the nbc-ompi-contrib.tar.gz file
>>> will
>>> contain the real NBC tarball (or maybe just a reference to it?)
>>> plus a
>>> small number of hook/glue scripts for OMPI integration (perhaps
>>> quite
>>> similar to what is in the contrib/ tree [on the branch] today for
>>> NBC?). Likewise, after NBC is installed into the local OMPI
>>> installation, ompi_info should be able to show "nbc" as installed
>>> contrib functionality. It then follows that we might be able to do:
>>>
>>> ompi_contrib --uninstall nbc
>>>
>>> to uninstall contrib NBC from the local OMPI installation.
>>>
>>> This kind of approach would seem to have several benefits:
>>>
>>> - Keep a clear[er] distinction between core OMPI and contributed
>>> packages.
>>>
>>> - Allow simple integration of MPI libraries, tools, and even
>>> applications (!) (think: numerical libraries, boost C++ libraries,
>>> etc. -- how many of your users install additional tools on top of
>>> MPI
>>> incorrectly?). Anything
>>>
>>> - Allow 3rd parties to have "contrib" code to Open MPI without
>>> needing
>>> to get into our code tree (and sign the 3rd party agreements, etc.),
>>> keeping our distribution size down, avoiding release schedule
>>> logistical issues, keeping our "core" build time down, etc.
>>>
>>> - Allow integration of contrib functionality at both a per-user and
>>> system-wide basis.
>>>
>>> What I'm really proposing here is that OMPI becomes a system that
>>> can
>>> have additional functionality installed / uninstalled. Based on the
>>> infrastructure that we already have, this is not as much of a
>>> stretch
>>> as one would think.
>>>
>>> Comments?
>>>
>>> ("who's going to write this" is a question that will also have to be
>>> answered, but perhaps we can discuss the code concept/idea first...)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 7, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Ralph H Castain wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I believe Brian and Terry raise good points. May I offer a possible
>>>> alternative? What if we only include in Open MPI an include file
>>>> that
>>>> contains the "hooks" to libNBC, and have the build system only
>>>> "see"
>>>> those
>>>> if someone specifies --with-NBC (or whatever option name you like).
>>>> If you
>>>> like, you can make the inclusion automatic if libNBC is detected on
>>>> the
>>>> system. It would make sense to also add -libNBC to the mpicc et al
>>>> wrappers
>>>> as well when the build system includes the function definitions.
>>>>
>>>> This would allow those users that want (or can) to use that library
>>>> link
>>>> against it, without adding a bunch of source code to our release. I
>>>> suspect
>>>> there are complications that will have to be dealt with, but offer
>>>> it as
>>>> something to consider.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also, remember that there is an added burden when we add source
>>>> code
>>>> to Open
>>>> MPI that we haven't discussed - we are now adding coordination
>>>> issues to our
>>>> own release cycle. If libNBC changes, are we now going to be
>>>> pressed
>>>> to
>>>> issue another OMPI release so that the new NBC version is included?
>>>> Do we
>>>> now need to coordinate our releases with theirs so that things
>>>> align?
>>>>
>>>> And if we have an increasing number of such "included" packages,
>>>> how
>>>> complex
>>>> is -that- release discussion going to get?!?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/7/08 4:48 AM, "Terry Dontje" <Terry.Dontje_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Torsten Hoefler wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Brian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me start by reminding everyone that I have no vote, so this
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> probably be sent to /dev/null.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks for your comment and this will not go to /dev/null!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think Ralph raised some good points. I'd like to raise
>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> yes [will reply to this in a separate thread]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does it make sense to bring LibNBC into the release at this
>>>>>>> point,
>>>>>>> given the current standardization process of non-blocking
>>>>>>> collectives?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My feeling is no, based on the long term support costs. We had
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> problem with a function in LAM/MPI -- MPIL_SPAWN, I believe it
>>>>>>> was --
>>>>>>> that was almost but not quite MPI_COMM_SPAWN. It was added to
>>>>>>> allow
>>>>>>> spawn before the standard was finished for dynamics. The
>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>> is,
>>>>>>> it wasn't quite MPI_COMM_SPAWN, so we were now stuck with yet
>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>> function to support (in a touchy piece of code) for infinity and
>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I worry that we'll have the same with LibNBC -- a piece of code
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> solves an immediate problem (no non-blocking collectives in MPI)
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> will become a long-term support anchor. Since this is something
>>>>>>> we'll
>>>>>>> be encouraging users to write code to, it's not like support for
>>>>>>> mvapi, where we can just deprecate it and users won't really
>>>>>>> notice.
>>>>>>> It's one thing to tell them to update their cluster software
>>>>>>> stack --
>>>>>>> it's another to tell them to rewrite their applications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think this is a very good and valid point. However, I would
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> deprecate the NBC_* things as soon as non-blocking collectives
>>>>>> are a
>>>>>> part of the standard. Of course, this would probably need two
>>>>>> minor
>>>>>> versions to "clean" the code-base, but this is (will be) our
>>>>>> normal
>>>>>> procedure (just what happened to MVAPI).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Though it doesn't seem to me that NBC is a slam dunk to get into
>>>>> the MPI
>>>>> spec and I could
>>>>> imagine it changing significantly due to someone elses opinion/
>>>>> needs.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And rewriting the user's application will not be that hard, it'll
>>>>>> mainly
>>>>>> be vim:%s/NBC_/MPI_/g. Even if we change the interface (e.g. add
>>>>>> tags or
>>>>>> decide to use the more limited split collective approach), this
>>>>>> task is
>>>>>> rather easy and can be automated easily. It's not a functionality
>>>>>> change, just an interface.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Though if NBC is built by default for release builds I think that
>>>>> raises
>>>>> the bar saying that we
>>>>> OMPI believe this should be used by all of our users without any
>>>>> concerns that the API may
>>>>> change or it might have significant issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> On a similar track do you have any tests that validate the
>>>>> functionality/correctness of NBC
>>>>> that can be ran as a part of the MTT nightly tests?
>>>>>
>>>>> My opinion is I have no problem with NBC being merged in just
>>>>> that I
>>>>> don't think it should be
>>>>> built by default.
>>>>>
>>>>> --td
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Jeff Squyres
> Cisco Systems
>
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-- 
Jeff Squyres
Cisco Systems